Springfield Armory Hellion 16", $1250, HSV area, FFL Required.

[HansGruber]

Bought it new, I got a good deal on mine, it was fun for 250 rounds.

I just don't shoot it anymore and would rather spend the money on good optics or an Elk hunt this fall.

HSV area, DM for pictures.

In or out of State:

• A valid FFL required,
• copy of your Drivers License,
• phone number
• money upfront, you pay for shipping and any transfer fees at the dealer of your choosing.

I have legal & safety requirements to help protect me and you. If you're not a criminal or felon, than filling out a 4473 is painless, and it's the law for an out of state transfer*.

We're not friends, your a buyer, I'm the seller. The only way I can verify you're ability to own the firearm is through the NICS system. My livelihood is more important than your desire to not fill out a 4473.

 

[kentTHEkegger]

Private sale with paperwork? What’s the point?

 

[HansGruber]

Private sale with paperwork? What’s the point?

What's the point? Price and the option to trade or barter.

I live in AL currently but my residency is in another state, which is where the firearm was purchased. So in effect, its an out of state transfer.

And, its a forum, I have no way of ensuring the buyers status. For example, if you sell a firearm to an exempt person that commits a crime, you can find yourself in muddy water with federal and state agencies. While it has not happened to me personally, I've seen friends have to go through the legal process, which involves way more headache than just having a 4473 done.

But, I'm not hard up for cash, so I'll sit on it until I find the right buyer.

 

[kentTHEkegger]

The out of state thing is a good point. It’s a great price too. Why not put it up on gunjoker? Or guns.com?

 

[HansGruber]

The out of state thing is a good point. It’s a great price too. Why not put it up on gunjoker? Or guns.com?

I thought about gunbroker, but I figured I would try something more local first before having to pay the 6% and deal with their payment system. I'll look into Guns.com

Are you interested in the gun?

 

[kentTHEkegger]

I have two jobs and I’m in school. I come here out of pure masochism.

 

[Drcrimson]

If you are not an Alabama resident using an FFL is the correct thing to do from a legal standpoint. Likely you or the buyer will have to pay a $40-50 transfer fee at most dealers.

Having said that I am generally not a fan of going through an ffl for in state private purchases (as noted yours doesn’t qualify as you are not an Alabama resident). You can verify my Alabama residency with my drivers license and Alabama concealed carry permit, so an FFL is not required from a legal standpoint on a private transfer between Alabama residents. Of course, every seller has the right to impose any requirements they want as long they understand the impact on buyers willing to jump through their own personal hoops.

Good luck with your rifle.

 

[HansGruber]

If you are not an Alabama resident using an FFL is the correct thing to do from a legal standpoint. Likely you or the buyer will have to pay a $40-50 transfer fee at most dealers.

Having said that I am generally not a fan of going through an ffl for in state private purchases (as noted yours doesn’t qualify as you are not an Alabama resident). You can verify my Alabama residency with my drivers license and Alabama concealed carry permit, so an FFL is not required from a legal standpoint on a private transfer between Alabama residents. Of course, every seller has the right to impose any requirements they want as long they understand the impact on buyers willing to jump through their own personal hoops.

Good luck with your rifle.

Totally.

After owning a plethora of NFA items, filling out 4473's are easy. And most people don't understand how the NICS/NTS system actually works, so they fear it like someone is actually going to know what gun they purchased.

 

[Drcrimson]

I’m not necessarily an expert on NICS, but my understanding is that there is a record at the FFL they must keep as long as they are in business. Of course, there is frequently talk that the aft has a database they keep as well (illegal). So I can see a case for not wanting to create a record for a private transaction that doesn’t require it.

 

[HansGruber]

I’m not necessarily an expert on NICS, but my understanding is that there is a record at the FFL they must keep as long as they are in business. Of course, there is frequently talk that the aft has a database they keep as well (illegal). So I can see a case for not wanting to create a record for a private transaction that doesn’t require it.

As for private sales, I totally understand why people want to do it. However, with the current ATF ruling, which has not been removed by SCOTUS or had injunction placed on it, sights that any private seller making "profit" on the sale of their firearm is by their definition breaking the law. Semantics aside, they will still rape you. And since there is no way to verify on a forum that you are not actually talking to an Federal Agent, I am personally requiring an FFL for the transfers and selling the firearm for less than what I paid for.

Information on FFL's, NTC, NICS, and record keeping

The FFL has to keep what's called an Acquisition/Dispositions (A&D) Book. Here's a good resource for understanding how long an FFL keeps their records. https://rocketffl.com/long-ffls-need-keep-records/, note that after 20 years the FFL can discard/destroy, or submit their records. Most FFL's just discard them after 20 years.

After an FFL closes their business or loses their license they have to submit their records to the ATF. The ATF then stores those records for the National Tracing Center (NTC). The NTC is the database you speak of and is not illegal. Here is a comical video of how the ATF stores records.

So long as private sellers understand the legal ramifications if they transferred the firearm to a prohibited person. In some states and depending on the case, the person that conducted the transfer can be subject to legal proceedings. Those proceedings might exonerate the seller, but the legal fees will likely bankrupt most middle class Americans.

If you're really concerned about all this, the trick is to buy guns that have been privately transferred 2 or more times over. Just hope you don't get a firearm that was used in a crime, which consequently is why the ATF tracks forums.

 

[Drcrimson]

Actually there is an injunction in place for GOA members nationwide on the “engaged in the business” rule and there is further pending legal action…

Four Reasons A Federal Court Found ATF’s “Engaged In The Business” Rule To Be Illegal | GOA

Just a few hours before ATF’s tyrannical new rule was scheduled to go into effect on Monday, May 20th—Gun Owners of America and Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton won a temporary restraining order against ATF in federal court.[i] Eventually, GOA secured a preliminary injunction preventing ATF...

www.gunowners.org

I should add that the recent SCOTUS chevron ruling also undermines all of the aft rules.

None of this would lead me as a buyer with a legitimate and presented Alabama drivers license along with CCW from not purchasing things via a legal private sale in the state of Alabama. There is nothing illegal in any way to do so.

Again, having said that you as a seller absolutely have a right to choose the terms of a sale. As a buyer I similarly have a right to accept or reject those terms especially around a private sale. For me personally, I would not purchase with your terms unless the seller paid for the FFL transaction and it’s was a great deal. But that’s just my opinion and only impacts me.

Lastly I’m sure there are folks from agencies monitoring sites. It doesn’t matter though as nothing I’m engaged in is illegal in any way, shape or form.

Oh and some details on the illegal aft database….

ATF’s Illegal Gun Registry 101 | Gun Owners of America

forms.gunowners.org

 

[HansGruber]

I really hope we get to see the full effects of the Chevron ruling. The ATF since the early 2000's has taken the "rule" making into unconstitutional territory. I was tracking the pistol brace stuff, but was not tracking the injunction being filed on the private sellers ruling, that's great news.

Actually there is an injunction in place for GOA members nationwide on the “engaged in the business” rule and there is further pending legal action…

Four Reasons A Federal Court Found ATF’s “Engaged In The Business” Rule To Be Illegal | GOA

Just a few hours before ATF’s tyrannical new rule was scheduled to go into effect on Monday, May 20th—Gun Owners of America and Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton won a temporary restraining order against ATF in federal court.[i] Eventually, GOA secured a preliminary injunction preventing ATF...

www.gunowners.org

I should add that the recent SCOTUS chevron ruling also undermines all of the aft rules.

None of this would lead me as a buyer with a legitimate and presented Alabama drivers license along with CCW from not purchasing things via a legal private sale in the state of Alabama. There is nothing illegal in any way to do so.

Again, having said that you as a seller absolutely have a right to choose the terms of a sale. As a buyer I similarly have a right to accept or reject those terms especially around a private sale. For me personally, I would not purchase with your terms unless the seller paid for the FFL transaction and it’s was a great deal. But that’s just my opinion and only impacts me.

Lastly I’m sure there are folks from agencies monitoring sites. It doesn’t matter though as nothing I’m engaged in is illegal in any way, shape or form.

Oh and some details on the illegal aft database….

ATF’s Illegal Gun Registry 101 | Gun Owners of America

forms.gunowners.org

As for the sale, people can always comment on the post or DM with questions if they're actually interested. But it isn't about the cost of the FFL, its's a philosophical problem for most people.

For me, I own so many NFA items, which is absolutely a database, has been and likely always will be I'm not worried about doing another 4473 to purchase a gun...lol They know what I have.

 

[Drcrimson]

Again good luck with the sale and I do apologize for somewhat overtaking your for sale listing.

 

[HansGruber]

Again good luck with the sale and I do apologize for somewhat overtaking your for sale listing.

Dude, not a problem at all. Its a gun forum, we're talking about guns.